Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Do you know someone who lives outside a big city with no lay community nor a place to go hear teachings and participate in guided meditations? Maybe that someone is you. Those wanting to practice the Eightfold Path in the west, but outside of the places that have the kind of teaching and community resource that Buddhists in cities have, this is the episode for you. Our guest today on Treasure Mound podcast is Bante Akaliko. Kaliko Biku is an Australian monk in the terrafara forest tradition. He is the spiritual director of Little Dust and the founder of Rainbow LGBTQIA Buddhist community.
Bante Akaliko is also the spiritual advisor of Central West Buddhists and a chaplain at the Western Sydney University. He sits on the boards of the Buddhist Council of New South Wales and the Federation of Australian Buddhist Councils. Bante Kaliko went forth as a monastic in 2016 and received full ordination with Ajam Brahm at Bodhanyana Monastery in 2017. He lived for several years with Bante sajato at the Monastery at the End of the World in Sydney and now lives as a wandering monk. He's now working on setting up the Little Dust Buddhist community. Little dust connects communities across Australia to the Buddhist teachings. It is aiming to create Dharma and meditation events for Buddhists from diverse cultural backgrounds as well as new Buddhists. And the Buddhish Little Dust aims to make Buddhism available to everyone, especially in regional and country areas where access to Dhamma is limited. So in this episode of Treasure Mound podcast, we're going to look at the work of Little Dust in working to develop communities of practice in outback Australia, but also to advise to address, I should say, the broader question. Of what to do to develop practice of Buddhism as both an individual and small groups and communities to support one another in the Dhamma.
Welcome to Treasure Mountain Bunte. How are you today?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Thank you, Saul. I'm really delighted to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: I'm really pleased to have you here as well. And I'm looking forward to finding out about Little Dust and what can be done outside of the big cities to help develop Buddhist communities. So I think probably, first of all, Bante, a good start is, could you describe the Little Dust initiative as well as what your motive was for starting Little Dust?
[00:03:12] Speaker B: The inspiration really was recognizing in regional and remote communities that I've been visiting as a monk, it's a real thirst for Dharma, but there's a real lack of services.
And being a boy who kind of grew up in the suburbs and lived most of my life in cities, I recognized just how privileged I was to be able to access the Dharma. In urban areas, where there's lots of Dharma centers, lots of different events happening all the time. And when I go out to these rural areas, there really wasn't anything else happening for a very long time.
And so the idea of setting up Little Dusk was to really prioritize the needs of our communities in regional and rural areas who are interested in spiritual activities and to let them know that someone cared enough to make them a focus and to start building strong relationships that would be long term rather than just one offs like what I was doing before.
So Little Dusk tries to go into these communities to give meditation, dharma events, dharma talks, and also cultural activities, which is a really important part of Buddhism across the world. And this is something that at the moment is really difficult to access in those areas.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I noticed in the blurb that was describing little dust on the website that you said that it was for traditional Buddhists and for the Buddhist.
What do you mean by that? That's interesting.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Well, it's really difficult for a lot of people who are interested in meditation, even who are interested in the Buddhist teachings, to identify themselves as Buddhists.
It's a label a lot of people, especially in Western countries, who have rejected some religion, perhaps Christianity, perhaps Islam, perhaps something else.
They've got an inherent suspicion of religion, and yet they're still really interested in spiritual teachings. So they enjoy meditation, they enjoy the teachings of the Buddha, but there's still this gap, this leap, which they have to make, perhaps, to actually call themselves a Buddhist. And so I recognized in a lot of the places that I visit, people are not actually identifying as Buddhist.
They're perhaps another word bud, curious.
They're not quite comfortable with this label. And I think that's a very interesting maybe that's a whole other podcast, actually. I think it's a very interesting phenomena. And personally, it reflects my own experience. It took me a long time to feel comfortable to come out as a Buddhist with my friends and family.
And there's a kind of social awkwardness around spirituality, and I recognize there's that difficulty.
So they're a community of people who have perhaps a lot of potential for growth on the spiritual path that need nourishment, but they're not interested in, I guess, what we might call traditional forms of Buddhism and certain cultural practices.
And so this is something that I've recognized and that I try to address in my know.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: I have to say, I'd love to talk about the whole interaction that we see, particularly here in Australia, but I imagine in other countries as well, between traditional Buddhists who've maybe migrated from an Asian country and those new to Buddhism, the interaction is both fascinating, but also really it generates so much goodness in unexpected ways. But I'm going to move on. I want to know how was the experience of people, I mean, people who want to practice Buddhism, living outside the big cities, who are in rural and remote areas. How is the experience different from that of urban dwellers when it comes to spiritual practice?
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Yeah, so in Australia, we often talk about the tyranny of distance. Australia is a really big country, and there's a lot of kilometers, hundreds of kilometers in between various centers, regional centers, by which I mean towns and cities.
And there's a very small population.
So it's not common to find a lot going on in these towns in terms of spiritual activities that aren't from the dominant religion, Christianity. And so I recognize that in these places they're not only disadvantaged in terms of things like access to medical care, jobs, cultural activities and all of those kind of social services, but they're also disadvantaged because of distance in their spiritual life. And so there's the kind of privilege that people in the cities have and there's a lack of access in regional areas. So for those people, they don't have what we take for granted, both in urban centers in Australia and also definitely in Buddhist countries. They don't have things like a temple. They don't have a cultural focus for their spirituality. They don't have a place to come and meet. They don't have a feeling that they belong to a community of religious practitioners. They don't have access to teachings, they don't have regular meditation events. They're very much spiritually alone.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Now, I believe that last year you did your first tour or wandering through, I don't know, what should we call it? A walkabout or a tudong? You went through New South Wales and Queensland. Is that correct?
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So I've been doing the work that I'm going to be doing a lot more of with little dust for some time. But I really wanted to formalize it by putting a name to it, by putting a kind of mission statement to that work. And so yeah, so I've been heading out to regional areas, sometimes at the request of communities and sometimes on a hunch of my own that there could be people looking for the dharma in various places. So, yeah, I've been going out to various centers and that's been really good. I found it very rewarding as a monk to know that wherever I go there are Buddhists who will support me in my spiritual practice. And I feel really happy that I can give back to those kind supporters and provide them with meditation and dharma teachings, provide them with a focus for their cultural practice of things like Dhana and offering requisites to the monks.
And they've been really supportive and keen to have repeat visits. Some of them have even asked me to stay and live there. And I think this is the kind of sign that there's a lot of thirst for the dharma in those places. And I contrast that perhaps with my experience in urban centers, which is good. I have a good time in cities, but there isn't the same level of I don't want to say desperation, soul, gratitude, interest, or gratitude. Thanks. Yeah, gratitude is probably the right way to look at it. And I think, again, it comes from that privilege.
These communities may not experience the Dharma again from a teacher for a long time. They may not come together as a community again for a long time. Whereas of course, in the cities, you know that people next week or even tomorrow can go to another talk or a meditation session, and if they miss one, it doesn't matter. And so when I go out to these places, I recognize that there's this service that I can do that perhaps isn't being done by anyone else. And so I'm really happy to do that. And you're right, the community is very grateful for that.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'd like to kind of answer my next question, which is, what has been your experience so far and what are people saying to you?
And maybe also what are your impressions of the people who are turning up and so forth?
[00:13:07] Speaker B: They're a really diverse bunch of people and this was something that really blew me away, actually. Christians, crystal worshippers, new Age guru types, yoga practitioners, and of course, people from very specific cultural Buddhist communities, such as those from the Sri Lankan diaspora, the Thai diaspora, and people from immigrant backgrounds whose family practice Buddhism.
So also young people, which is a wonderful thing because often we don't see a lot of young people in Buddhism and in Australia at least. And so, yeah, young people. And at some of my events I'm remembering now, there was like a whole bunch of people in their eighty s, and even, I think edging towards 90. So I was blown away at the diversity and I really valued that. This community of people who perhaps didn't share a single other thing in common were brought together by their spiritual interest.
They have been asking for teachings, they've been waiting for someone to come and do it, like a weekend meditation retreat. And when I was there in these places, they expressed to me quite directly at times how much they lack in terms of access to the Dharma and meditation and spiritual practice generally and how much they wanted it.
As I said before, they would ask me to come back and they would ask me to stay. They've invited me in some places to do rains retreats for three months to stay in that place, and they've also asked me to come and live in some of these locations. So this really shows to me that there's this profound interest in the Dharma. And yeah, it kind of surprised me, actually.
It surprised me.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: That's really interesting. It's wonderful that you're doing that. It sounds to me like an initiative, which is well past time that somebody took that on us. So it's amazing that you've done that. But I just wanted to ask, do you think that there is any prospect, is this just going to be Hugh? Or are there any other Bikus or bikunis that might at some future time, also become part of a network, perhaps.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: That is very much the aim.
There's a couple of aims that I'm kind of plotting as I go along. So, as we mentioned, this is just the beginning, and at the moment, I'm doing most of the work, and that's okay.
I have been involving some other monastics with the program.
And so, for example, one of the events I did last year in Molong, I invited some bugunis to come along and help teach. And that was really good because I ended up getting COVID and not be able to do the retreat. And again, this time I'll be teaching a retreat in Molong in a few weeks, and I've invited a Bakuni to come along to that venerable Passana. And so we're slowly introducing ourselves to these communities. And in the future, I would like to encourage suitable monastics to go out and to spend some time with these various communities. I won't be able to do it all the time either. But this is the problem for those communities. In a way. They recognize that maybe they're not the most desirable locations and so they in the past haven't been well serviced by monastics.
And by that I mean, people might come and visit, but they'll just stay for two days and then they go away again.
Maybe they'll never go back. Whereas I felt it was important to really create a relationship.
And that's partially why I'm doing a lot of this work at the beginning, because I want them to know that my commitment is long term, it's not just a short term affair. And so I want them to feel like they can touch base with someone, not just have these one off interactions. And also I invite them to really consider me as a spiritual friend and to reach out when I'm not there.
So maybe another aspect that we can do in the future is having some online events for the Little Dust community that brings various people together.
That's one aspect, that kind of long term commitment to relationship building with those communities, and another is connecting those communities within themselves to other local practitioners. And this is especially important for some of those diaspora communities such as the Sri Lankan or the Thai, the Laos or Cambodian communities, where they tend to only hang out in their own cultural ethnic groups. And they may not have come together in the past to share resources and to build audiences for spiritual practice. So that's one thing that I try to do, because I think as we go forward in Australia, we're really going to have to get over these boundaries that sometimes prevent us from seeing ourselves as part of a bigger budhist picture. And if we've only got immigrant communities supporting monks or nuns, then sometimes I wonder if their children will. And I've seen that often their children don't. So we need to kind of break out of these very small groups and start building larger groups of interested people. And I think if we can do that in these communities, then perhaps they can do things like invite monks and nuns together. And if there's enough support, there may be the ability to sustain a monastic in those communities for at least part of the year, maybe all the year round.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: It sounds like there are some very sincere and generous people out there, and these are wide open, quiet places. I really hope that there are some monks and nuns out there who will go and visit and maybe stay for quite a while, maybe on a more permanent basis.
Clearly, you're a person who has a lot of compassion for people and you understand the situation of people living in regional rural areas.
And I do hope that there's people listening who are saying, wow, that's great, and I want to do something like that. Maybe they'll even get in touch with you. However, I've got a lot of people listening to the podcast in different countries. They may not be able to participate in Little Dust directly. Could you offer some advice on I got two questions I wanted to ask for those people. For individuals who are living a long way from a practice center with teachings and guided meditations retreats and social events, what advice can you offer them in terms of developing the eightfold path? This is for individuals.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. A lot of people get in touch with me, and I see online also that there are people who are in Middle America or in places like Colombia and even the United Arab Emirates and places like that. And they're literally the only Buddhists in the village.
And I really feel sorry for them because I have also felt spiritually alone, and I know what it is to have that yearning for a deeper connection with people around a spiritual tradition.
So my advice would be that you really have to look after yourself and you really have to investigate the Dharma for yourself. You have to get excited about it, and that's not always easy.
So you'll need to really study the teachings, either by listening to good Dharma talks online or by reading the Suttas and listening to good teachers or reading good teachers books. And you need to actually probably develop a kind of program for yourself where you continually inspire yourself to practice. And the reason I say that is because you want to see people being passionate about this spiritual practice, not leaving it at the periphery of their life. You want to see them starting to bring it into the center of their life, because that's where it will make a lot of difference if it's brought into daily practice, daily reflection, daily passion in your life. Otherwise, if we kind of leave it for the end of the week or the end of the day, the end of the month to do our meditation or to do some study then time just slips away so quickly. And even for people who are connected into really active and vibrant Buddhist communities, there's also a tendency in them to leave their spiritual practice towards the end of the week or the day or the month and not really incorporate it into their life fully. And so for anyone, I think that we really need to feel like there's some excitement about our practice, that it is something that brings life and richness to us, and so that's how we can prioritize it.
For me, developing the passion is maybe more important than developing academic knowledge or theoretical understandings, but seeing the Dharma coming alive in your everyday life. And this is how I think people can really get conviction in the Buddhist teachings.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Thank you for that. And I did want to ask a second question on behalf of those people who maybe are outside of Australia, but in perhaps isolated places, but for small groups of people in rural or regional areas that want to develop their spiritual practice and their community.
What could these groups do? What steps could they take to develop their community of practice?
[00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good point, because sometimes we just are waiting around for someone else to organize our spiritual communities.
And actually, if there's something that you want to see, you should make it happen yourself.
This could be just as simple as getting out a texter or a marker pen and writing a note on an a four piece of paper and sticking it up on a local notice board at the supermarket or at the post office or somewhere saying, hey, do you want to meditate? Let's get together.
And this is a way that you can find people in your area who are interested in the same things that you are. And it doesn't matter if you have no other shared interests, it doesn't matter how many people turn up, but you've got someone. You got a buddy, perhaps, if assuming someone else is interested. But I think you'll find that people in your community are also waiting for someone to organize their spiritual life. So you have to be that person.
And this is something that I've done for myself several times over. And it's interesting, sometimes when you make those first steps, you've got a lot of insecurity, a lot of doubt, a lot of uncertainty.
It's like you're organizing a party, you're not sure anyone's going to turn up. But there's a lot of interest in the Dharma, there's a lot of interest in spirituality, and we just need that little spark where we feel like, ah, this is happening. I want to get involved. I want to belong. And so to those people, I'd say, do it, organize it yourself, start a group. And you don't have to be well informed. You don't have to be a great teacher. You can just be the kind of person who brings people together for a cup of tea and a chat. This is the beginning of spiritual friendship. Later on, perhaps you do some guided meditations from YouTube, or you listen to a Dharma talk together, or perhaps you read a sutta together and discuss it. Maybe you organize a short course where you look at a subject like the Four Noble Truths or the Eightfold Noble Path. But in this way, you kind of build understanding. You build shared experiences, and this is what creates community.
So it's up to us to create the communities we want to see. And all of those places around the world where there's temples, dharma centers, retreat centers, these were all started by people just like, you know, the Buddha. He had confidence in us.
And when I came up with this name, little Dust, comes from the Sutta, where Brahma Sahampati says to the Buddha, encouraging him to teach that there are beings with little dust in their eyes who understand the Dharma, and those beings are us. Those beings are people listening to this podcast.
Those are the beings with little dust in their eyes. So the Buddha had confidence in our ability to appreciate the teachings and to grow and develop. And so if you're listening to this and you're out in the middle of nowhere, you've got no friends, then you can do it. Start a spiritual community of your own, and I'm sure that you'll get a lot of benefit and that you'll benefit many other people, too.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: That is an excellent answer, Pante, and I can attest to the accuracy of your comments. I live here down in the Southwest, in the Margaret River region, and I have a friend who is part of my group, and he was in the bigger town of Dunsborough, and for one reason or another, he had to move. And he moved to a lovely little town inland called Nanap, and there was no one there that he knew of. And he just put up some signs around town on pieces of a four paper and organized a meditation together. And they've been doing that now, I think, for two years. They meet every week, and they just sit together for meditation, and then they get a recorded teaching from online, and they just watch that, and then they discuss it so it can be done. It's really encouraging when people do take that first step to organize just a few people, whether it's in someone's home or a local government building or whatever it is. Look, I do want to get on to this next question, which is how, in Buddhism, the role of the monks and nuns is really important as teachers and as a field of merit and a focus of giving.
But in many cases in the west, there is no resident monastic. Can you offer advice for such communities, either in terms of inviting monastics or otherwise? What they can do in the absence of a monastic teacher?
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So it is impossible I was going to say it is possible, but maybe that's a Freudian slip. It is very difficult, actually, to invite teachers to stay.
There's never enough. Monastics isn't kind of an interesting thing.
There's a real shortage of monastics even here on the east coast of Australia in Sydney, the most populous and the most Buddhist city in Australia.
Someone yesterday said to me they were really glad that I was coming to stay at their center for a week because she said there's no monastics here, and the devotees have been waiting for someone to visit so that they can do some cultural activities, like offering dhana that's in the city.
And so there's a real shortage of monastics.
So we've got to build those relationships where the monastics see their community more broadly than just what's in front of them, perhaps at their monastery, and that they do perhaps similar things to what I'm doing, which is actually going out to those places. So I would encourage communities to actually invite monks and nuns and to tell them why they want them to come and visit. And I'd encourage those monks and nuns to take a risk and go out to those places and to be of service to those communities.
The thing that perhaps might need to have some upskilling is just the rules and the interactions that are possible between especially terravadan monastics and lay people. So these are some things that perhaps aren't generally very well known, especially in non Buddhist Buddhist communities. So people will try to hug you or kind of invite you for dinner out at pubs and things like that. And so there's not much kind of basic knowledge about looking after monastics. And so perhaps in the past, monastics might be a bit reticent to go to these places if they weren't sure they were going to be fed, for example.
I think there has to be that.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: Is good advice, though. I think that's excellent advice, that if you are in one of those small communities and you want to find out more about monastic discipline, don't just think of what you can get out of having a monastic there. Yes, those things are true. But how you can serve a monastic and make them want to stay, like find a quiet place out of town where they can stay, where it'll be good for their practice as well. And if that's right, the monastic is happy.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: Yeah, then they'll come back. So, for example, I did stay at one place where they initially offered me really unsuitable accommodation, and by that it was like sharing a house with two women. And for male monastics, that's not possible.
And they also didn't understand that I can't cook and needed to have food offered.
Just these small things can make a big difference, and I'm really happy to do that work of upskilling and giving this knowledge a good example, actually, is one of the places I went to they didn't have a culture of sharing. And so every individual would bring their own food for their day of practice and kind of sit in the corner facing the wall and eat out of their lunchbox. And so I also needed to eat right, so I encouraged them to put some food into my arms bowl.
And so they just put a little scoop of whatever they had into my arms bowl and we could have a conversation about what it is for a monk to live dependent upon a community and how they can generate good feelings of generosity and accumulate merit through this practice. And next time I see them, I'm sure that there'll be a very different vibe, that there'll be people who have gotten the hint and who want to share some food, and they'll bring a whole heap of food and we'll share it together, as happens in so many Buddhist places around the world. So it's little things like this which are just still not quite the ground, is maybe still not quite prepared enough to support monastics long term, which is why they've had these kind of like, very short interactions, which means that they never learn what needs to happen to support a monastic. And it means that the community misses out on the benefits of knowledge and teaching that a monastic can bring.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a really valuable point about what understanding what monastics need in terms of support. But often I think people in rural areas think they're at a disadvantage, and in one states that's true. But there is also an advantage in that. You've got peace and quiet, wide open spaces. This is a real advantage. And if you can find a place, a quiet, secluded place with appropriate shelter, this could be a very good place for a monastic to do their own spiritual practice. And if they feel welcome and well supported, there is a chance that they'll stay again and stay longer. So I think that's what the advice you've given is really good there, look, you've got some little Dust events coming up soon. Would you like to tell us about those events?
[00:37:18] Speaker B: Sure. So what I've been plotting and planning over the next few months is to continue this wandering towards various communities. And so I'm going to be heading up to Newcastle, which is 3 hours north of Sydney, which is quite a large city, and we're going to be doing some activities up there. I'll be connecting with the Sri Lankan Buddhist Association of Newcastle and also working with a local meditation group called the Sitting. We're going to be doing some Dhana offerings and also a cemetery contemplation, death Contemplation in a really beautiful old cemetery there. After that, I'm heading out to Orange, where there's a group which is a great inspiration for those people in remote areas around the world. It's called Central West Buddhists, and they're another good example of just one guy who. Wanted to see some Buddhism happening in his area and so he set up an organization and Central West New South Wales is an area that encompasses hundreds and hundreds of kilometers, so these towns are very far apart and so he's trying to connect people from places like Dubbo, Orange and other places I can't even remember. But anyway, so I'm going out there and I'm teaching a retreat in Molong on the Monkey Mind, and after that I'll be connecting with the community in Dabo, which is just another 3 hours or so from Orange, and I'll be connecting once again with the Sri Lankan Buddhist community there. And after that I come back to Sydney and I'll be taking a breather, staying in one place for a whole three weeks. And then I'll be heading to Rockhampton, which is in Central Queensland, to do a retreat and out at a place called Yapoon. And so these are very for those people who know Australia, this is quite the adventure. And so this is how it will continue for the next six months, at least until the Rains retreat, the annual Reigns retreat where I'll spend three months in one place. So this is my new life as a wandering monk and this is the only way really, to get to those communities, because if I was to stay in one place, you end up having to serve that community and you can't really leave. So part of my plan is to not settle down and to keep moving so that I can keep on returning over and over again to these communities.
[00:40:23] Speaker A: Sadu bante. Well done. Look, and just to finish things off, could you let people know how can they find out more about Little Dust and how to get in contact with Little Dust?
[00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah, so there's a website, Littledust.org, so you can go and have a look at our activities there and you can contact me via that website also, so it's littledust.org and I will be putting.
[00:40:53] Speaker A: All the links mentioned in this episode in the description below. So, look, thank you very much, Bante Acalico. I'm so appreciative that you've come up for what you're doing, which is amazing. Hopefully you'll inspire many others to do likewise. Thank you very much.
[00:41:10] Speaker B: Thank you, Saul. Have a great day and best wishes for the podcast.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: And thank you to all our listeners for joining us on this insightful episode of Treasure Mountain, in which Banter Calico has told us about his efforts to help develop communities of practice in rural and regional parts of Australia. If you live in regional New South Wales or Queensland, I hope you can get involved. And if you live outside a big city in another country, then hopefully this advice from Banter Calico offers useful guidance on the things that you can do to get something started in your local area. You can find out more about Bante Kalakur and the Little Dust initiative in the links in the description below. This episode, Treasure Mountain Podcast is part of the Everyday Dharma Network. You can find out more about the Treasure Mountain Podcast and to the link in the description below this episode. But you can also find out on the Treasure Mountain Podcast website information about all previous episodes and guests, as well as transcriptions of our interviews. And if you go back to the Everyday Dumma Net homepage, you can discover more about the three other podcasts on the network and links to subscribe to any and all of them. I think you might like them. I'd love to hear your feedback. You can contact me via the website if you enjoy this podcast, I'd appreciate if you could share this episode with your friends or other people who could benefit from its wise advice. Also, you can subscribe to Treasure Mountain Podcast using your favourite podcast app in order to get notified about future episodes. I hope you'll join us again for our next episode of Treasure Mountain as.
[00:42:51] Speaker B: We seek for the treasure within Sam.
