Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: Welcome to Treasure Mountain, the podcast that inspires and guides us to find the treasure within human experience. I'm your host. Sol hannah Joining us on this episode is a humble monk who was quietly practicing meditation in northern Thailand until he returned to his native Ukraine just three months before the Russian invasion in February 2020. Do Bante titamo was born in the former Soviet Union in 1971. He was a reserved child who enjoyed spending time alone, reading and sometimes visiting Orthodox Christian monasteries for the quiet environment. At age 14, Bante Titamo and a friend became interested in the mysticism of Tibet, and both decided that they would like to be monks in Tibet. However, it would not be until many years later, whilst on a meditation retreat in Thailand, when he decided to go forth as a Salmora novice monk. After six months, he disrobed and returned to Ukraine. However, life seemed unfulfilling, and he returned to Thailand to Adain again in early 2015 in the forest tradition. Under his teacher Arjans to Chart, bante Titamo returned to Kiev shortly before the Russian invasion on 24 February 2022 and experienced some hair raising situations as the Russian army closed in on his position near Kiev. Despite enduring many difficulties, along with millions of other Ukrainians, bante Tetidamo bears no ill will and thinks of Ukrainians and Russians and all humans as being like one big family. He has gone on to become a teacher to Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians, both online and in person. He teaches in both Ukrainian and in Russian and is finding that there is real interest in the teachings of Buddhism and practices like meditation. Bante Titi Damo is kindly joining us today from Kiev, and we will be finding out a little about his experiences over the past year or so and how the practice of dharma is helping people find peace amidst war. I'm so glad that you've chosen to join us as we seek for the treasure within.
Welcome to Treasure Mountain. Bunte, how are you today?
[00:02:47] Speaker A: I'm fine, hello. Thank you for having me here.
I hope your listeners will bear with me for some time.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Yes, I should perhaps mention Bante Titidamo's third language is English, so he's doing his very best, and we should all be patient because he's got a very special message for us. Now, Bante, before we dive into this interview about your recent experiences of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to Ordaining Azabiku.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Well, as you said just before, it was nothing special in my biography. Was born in Soviet Union in 1971, grew up as a very reserved child, always liked to be with my own, and most of my time I used to spend with reading books.
More lately visiting Orthodox church and temples within my city.
Because of their peacefulness, because of their calm, I never understood ideas of Christianity but the idea of her mutation life as a monk was always appealed to me. And then at the age of 14 my friend and I, we became fascinated with mysticism of Tibet and started to read some books about again tibet, China, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism.
Later on I took up some practice about wushu himastic and meditate in my own. But you know, then like sort of I hit the life with all its ups and downs, mistakes, failures, happiness and sadness. We call it like crushing roller coaster.
One interesting thing up to my ordination I always felt like I missed something out, like something must be done.
And that's just what happened when I was in my turned out like something like pulled me out from my life. I explain it very often like I jumped in last carriage of the train. So in 2014 I find myself in Thai in one meditation center.
And then I learned about some Thai forest monk. His name as you said, Adran Suchard. He spent about eight years also in former Soviet Union studying at the universities of Moscow and also Kiev, my native city capital of our country.
So he speaks Russian quite well. So I came to him, I asked for the first time, I asked for kind of temporary one and that was the way.
Firstly I became a salmonella for three months and then for maybe three or four months I took full donation. After that it was some kind of small business. So I had to came back to my country for a very short time. And when I discovered that there is nothing to do for me at that time I came back in time and in February 2015 I became a monk second time up to now. So it happened about eight years ago like this.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: And I understand before we were talking online for the interview you mentioned that you were living in Asia, mostly in Thailand and you returned to Ukraine shortly before the Russian invasion. Could you tell us about where you were and what motivated you to return to Ukraine prior to the invasion?
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Well, my monastery is to be more precise, it's kind of chain of forest monasteries, damayut Nikaya it's kind of sect, but not like sect but how to say, one of two most popular ordination in Thai.
Located in northern Thai near Chiang Mai. It's kind of northern capital of the Thai, quite big chain of the monastery.
Our main adjun. His name is Lumpo Damasa atit Vienna. He considered by many Thai people as bodhisattva.
So I spent about four years in this in kind of main training temple and after that I spent last three and a half years in the temple of my preceptor underwent quite good dutanga practices.
First three years we went for these practices with my Suchak and last three years I did it alone walking around northern part of Thai. It's very close to if you know, golden triangle. It's a corner where three countries meet together thai, Myanmar and Lao we call Golden Triangle. So next three or four years I spent each vasa in different temples. But all these temples belongs to one chain. It's kind of one chain temples. And just now I keep in touch with our monks. So we are still together kind of and to answer your second part of the question, I had to go back just because my passport was about to expire. It was about three or less months left.
But at the same time, I want to say that I had the idea of kind of settle up a forest temple in my country in Ukraine, because actually, many of my months brothers, they did want and they wanted up to now visited our country, spent some time with me here, especially in winter, because I told them that if you could go through maybe short time as a monk in winter, it would be a very good benefit to your whole practice as a forest monk. So I have this idea, I have this idea just now the only thing all these my ideas, all these my plans, they are now kind of suspended because of the womb of her.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: I'm sure that's true terms of having plans suspended. I'm sure that's true for millions of Ukrainians. I wanted to ask though, when you returned to Ukraine, what was the feeling that you had and maybe people around you did you feel that there was an invasion that was about to occur or were people more relaxed about it? Did they think maybe it wasn't going to happen?
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Ah, well what I have to say that I think that for most of the people, in spite of this conflict which became in 2014 with invasion not kind of Russian troops directly, but with annexation of Crimea and all, these activities around Donetsk and Lugansk area. But I think most of our people did not expect this turned out in our relationship between two countries because for very long time our two nations were kind of brother nations.
We were together, we lived together in a very big country for about 70 years named Soviet Union. You must know this country. And I think for most of the people this turnout was really shocked. But at the same time I been in Kiev this time I haven't seen any kind of panic, any kind of chaos, any kind of emotional expression. People just accept it at ease as a reality. And they tried to keep on. They tried to do it then years ago and they tried and do it now, keep walking, keep doing their daily stuff, whatever happened. We have some power cuts, we have some shelling up to now, but life goes on.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah, it's quite amazing.
Would you say that in some ways the war has brought some good out in people in the community? Do you feel like that may be the case?
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Can you repeat it please again?
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just going to ask do you feel that the war has, instead of bringing panic, has brought about cooperation and brought some good qualities out in people?
[00:15:29] Speaker A: Yes, certainly it did because I do not communicate with people so much and I did not do it before because as a monk I used to stay in my own at my place. We don't used to walk around and to get in touch with people too much. And maybe the circle of people who really get in touch with us is quite narrow. But what I hear from people, what I hear from some news.
Our nation is more unite more like one family now than ever.
And people express more kindness towards each other, more politeness, more patience.
So I think maybe it's not right way to say this but in some way these events did contribute to some kind of uniting people I don't know how to say it's more precise, more clear but I think it kind of feature that belongs maybe to any nations who suffer this kind of events very harmful.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Now you go back to Ukraine, you want to renew your passport and you're thinking maybe it's possible to start a forest monastery in Ukraine or something like this and then the war starts quite suddenly and the Ukrainian government put a ban on men of fighting age from leaving the country. Does this mean that you are stuck in Ukraine right now?
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Actually, yes, we do kind of close within our countries. Like many others.
Like all others.
Grown men at the age from 20 to 60 years old. And there is they they say that there is some kind of opportunity to go out for a short period of time. But it requires very big bunch of documents and permissions. Is quite impossible for us now. But my attitude to this we have what we have and what we can do in this situation is to stay awareness, to stay calm, to try to get maximum benefits from this. At the Monk we try to communicate with people more about meta practice, about practice of recollection of the death, something like this. So if you, for example ask me whether I regret about it or not definitely not because I did learn a lot not about only my Ukrainian people I learned a lot about myself, about how my mind works in very different difficult situations. I learned about how my heart works.
I get very deep experience from the very fact of the world of this fear deep fear which arises inside you when you hear all these explosions, all these guns.
So it's quite amazing experience.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Wow, that's incredible. I think a lot of us who are living in countries that are peaceful and relatively safe find that incredible because some of us are dealing with anxiety and fear and we don't have to deal with that situation. But I also find it so interesting that for you is like the war and the harsh conditions, the fearful conditions really became for you an opportunity to practice the dharma more deeply, which is really interesting. I do want to ask you more, though, about your experience, because at the outbreak of the war, you were living in Kiev. And just to refresh listeners'memory, at the time, there was a three pronged attack by the Russian army into Ukraine and one of those was coming out of the north and was aimed at taking control of Kiev and got very close to Kiev. Bante could you tell us about your personal experience during this early phase of the war?
[00:21:49] Speaker A: Well, if to be more precise, russian troops did not go through Belarus. They go very close to it's, kind of very nearly to Belarus. And certainly they was very close to us, especially to the place where my senior monk and I was staying, about 5 km away from front lines. And what I have to say, it was certainly an unforgettable experience. All the sounds of sirens barricades our house was on very busy street and they built kind of road block just in front of our windows. And as I remember now, we had the first explosions around four or five in the morning on February 24.
And firstly we didn't understand what it was at all. And then we heard some more and some more and then sirens went on.
The day after the explosion started coming more close, even the house began to shake. And the most profound experience out of that is that kind of very deep, ancient fear, very inner fear you start to experience at first moment. You cannot kind of manage it, you cannot cope with it because it's really when you feel and when you became aware that just every second you can be killed or kind of tearied apart with your body. It's really very deep, very ancient, very stone feelings.
And only after that it was very kind of unforgettable moments. Only after that your nowhere, my teacher calls it nowhere. Someone who know only after some one or two minutes your nowhere became walks and observe mind, observe feeling, observe your emotions. But it wasn't really very easy. It was really difficult not to kind of carry it away with all these inner feelings, inner fear, something like this. And the turning point here, I believe, is to try in situations like this, the turning point is to try to maintain awareness, to stay alert, to stay mindful, not to be, as I said, carried away by these emotions, feelings, thoughts. And then, as it says, if there is enough practice of formal meditation, what we do in our zala, in our meditation centers, the mind can pull itself together in very short time.
It can be focused and go through all stages of samati and move straight onto Vipassan. I think it's practically very difficult. Maybe at times like this, but I believe if it succeeds, it yields significant.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: I find that really interesting that the thing that you have just told us about is really your inner experience and how obviously there's this tremendous fear which just can arise just quite naturally because there's explosions going off everywhere, there's sirens. It is a genuinely very dangerous environment.
But then, I guess you said it's almost like the fear wakes you up but then you go on and you are able to be mindful. But I guess the challenge was to not be dragged along with ideas about what could go wrong. Did you find that you were able to maintain present moment awareness during this time or was it just very difficult?
[00:27:16] Speaker A: As I said, firstly, it wasn't just the very next moment after you get to know what's going on around.
But then, as I said again, it's very important to have maybe some kind of basic level or maybe some kind of level of knowledge and some kind of experience of previous practices on our hateful path.
It's very important because when you can sustain this state of awareness again, I want to say again, I think it's very difficult in situations like this and I think it depends it's very personal, it's very individual and I think it depends on what kind of situations.
It depends on time, it depends on places, it depends on many things.
As for me, I do not state I don't want to state that I kind of achieve some kind of special state of mind but to keep kind of basic awareness, if you remember how it works, if you have some, as I said, basic experience of formal meditation practice, I believe it's very achievable.
So it's just the matter of trying, it's the matter of sati, it's the matter of remembering who you are and what are you doing here.
I cannot give some kind of one what I try to say I cannot give some kind of one method for everyone and for any kind of cases like this.
I think everyone should find their own way how to keep on practicing, how to keep on be aware and mindful in situations like this. But I want to say that we should try, we should remember that we take refuge in Buddha Dhamma Sanka. It means that we took this refuge for 24 hours a day, not only when we are sitting in meditation center or when we go through morning or evening sessions. We must remember about our pavana every time, at any given moment.
That's what I try to say.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: Very good. I do want to move forward now.
We, of course, now know that the Ukrainian defenders of Kiev were successful and the Russian army retreated from Kiev although the war goes on in the south and the east.
But I wanted to ask you it seems that you are in a somewhat unique position being a Buddhist monk in Ukraine right now. I understand there's two other Buddhist monks there, but that's not a whole lot. How has your role as a monk changed since the invasion? So after that initial period, which was very dangerous in the months since, has your role as a monk changed?
[00:31:58] Speaker A: Okay, no.
As we mentioned at the beginning, I came back to Ukraine in just few months before the invasion. So I did not have too much opportunity to get in touch with many our Buddhists in Kiev in particular, because not so many people came to visit me, just maybe two months. They did not know me before that. I did not do any attempts to promote myself. I just came back. And I would say that for many people, maybe not for many, but for some our people, it was like I came from unexpected direction and with unexpected demands for some people. And another reason is that strictly speaking, thai tradition does not so well known in Ukraine in some reason. Maybe because some years ago some first man came to Sri Lanka and then he took full ordination in Sri Lanka and then another man went after him.
Although as you maybe know, and maybe it's very similar to many countries, western countries.
In my country, Goinkat tradition wasn't is very popular and many people, men and women became to know Buddhism exactly through going to tradition. And then they switched to Mahasi Sayada techniques and schools, paul Sayad and other teachers from Myanmar and Sri Lanka. And the Tai tradition is known mainly for Adam Chia's books and even and more recently for Ajan Chayasaras and Ajan Brahms Dharma talks on YouTube and many kinds of books. But before, Thai tradition wasn't so popular and well known. So when I came back, one of my goal was to spread Thai attitudes towards not only formal practice, but towards the whole meaning of Buddhist practices like formal and informal.
And I don't say that something has changed so much.
I would say the state of war does not contribute so much to it because up to now, moving around our country is not as easy as it's been before.
As you mentioned, we have martial law in Due and moving around the country not so easy. People cannot come to us just any days when they want.
Many of our people went out from Ukraine and I mean women, a lot of women who used to support monks in Ukraine and in other countries, they went out and they now outside Ukraine. So mostly we get in touch together online.
[00:36:37] Speaker B: I was going to ask you that what is the main method of teaching that you do? Is it individual counseling or is it in groups? Is it in person or online?
What is the main way that you're teaching at the moment?
[00:36:56] Speaker A: I would say it's the same.
Both of these practice has their benefits because again, moving around our countries is quite difficult now and all communication take place online.
Sometimes we do at the beginning of the war, we set up kind of online classes, but not only for Ukrainians, for any who speak Russian. And there were at the beginning some kind of wave of adversary from some Ukrainian Buddhists. Mostly because of the language, because of we three months here. Mostly we use Russian language because I am actually originated from Russian family and my both senior monks here they are as well. They are from Russians. And to talk about this is kind of different question now, but what we do now we do lessons for any who attain our online classes.
Ukrainians, Belarus, Russians, maybe from any other countries of former Soviet Union. What I want to say that I think I believe that the best way to show the usefulness of the practice is our personal example. Many people, the very fact that people see or at least know that there are three of us monk here who despite all the difficulties, all this hardship during the war, we not only stay here, but we continue to practice Dhamma Denaya. So I think it's kind of the best way to show the right attitude to Dhamma to practice as well.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: I think this is a really interesting point that you've raised. I just wanted to clarify for the listeners who are outside of Ukraine that previously there was the Soviet Union and the common language was Russian. So in all of the different republics, people spoke Russian quite commonly, but also people moved around. So even now there are a lot of people who are Ukrainian background living in Russia and Russian background living in Ukraine. And in fact, even President Volodymyr zelensky, I believe, is from a Russian speaking part of Ukraine. So I think it goes back to that sense that you said at the start, the shock, how could this war happen when we're all really interconnected? I think that was a key thing, key point that came up. But I did also want to ask you said that you've also got people who are Belarussian or also Russians who are logging into your online classes.
Are they Russians in Russia or Russian speakers in Ukraine or are they in some cases Russians who have fled Russia because of the draft?
Because I know a million Russians have actually left Russia is what I've heard on the news.
Where are those people coming from?
[00:41:11] Speaker A: Mostly, I don't know. I never gave so much thought about this. Actually. For me it's kind of very difficult to accept. For many it was very difficult.
It was like challenge to accept this my point of view for some our Ukrainian Buddhists. But my point of view that it doesn't matter for me as long as he or she practice, he or she takes refuge in Buddha, Dharma Sankha, he or she takes five or more precepts. And maybe it can sound a little bit hard or tough for some people, but for me it doesn't matter if someone came to me and asked to give him some kind of teaching and he asked me, as it must be, he asked me three times, like first time and duty.
And I will teach him.
I will not ask him what is your nationality or what is your vision about some kind of politics matters.
Something like this. For me, what's more important for me is attitude.
This man or this woman to practice to Buddhism, to the idea of this holistic idea of what is the Buddhist way of practicing living and what you do.
And what my teacher taught me very often that you should first look at yourself, not look to another, not to try to evaluate or judge another people, to look our world through yourself. It's one of the characteristics of Dharma, dharma society called openaiko. So my teacher very often stressed out this, that if you even teach people, if you even meet some people anyway, you should see at yourself first. Not judge people, not evaluate people. So actually come back to your question. That's why I actually wasn't concerned in this why and who is he?
Why he is there or she is here? Something like this.
[00:44:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, from a Buddhist perspective, it doesn't really matter who they are, what their nationality is. If they are sincere in their attitude, then I think that's amazing that you can put all that aside and just teach the person in front of you even if they're online and you don't necessarily know where they're from.
Now, I did want to ask one thing that specifically is I believe that you've even given teachings to Ukrainian soldiers who maybe they've spent a bit of time away from the front and then they have to return. What has that experience been like teaching soldiers who want to practice dharma but also are duty bound to defend their country?
[00:45:23] Speaker A: Yeah, very interesting question and very difficult one because actually Buddhism do not teach how to deal with this situation, especially with the war, how to survive in the time of war. We do not find in Palikanan any suta which can explain this matter. And actually, especially at the beginning of the war, many men mostly asked us what we should do because due to martial law now any man can be draft to military and must serve their country, even us monk. Because in my country, Buddhism is not like state religion. And anytime we are three of us, we can be pulled out from our places or at least asked to be kind of to serve military in some way. So many men wrote to us or came to us and asked what should we do?
Should we take up gun? Should we participate in some kind of activities to help in front line? Maybe not take up gun, but kind of dig the how to say, dig the branches or nurse in some medical center. And we replied we don't know, of course we must defend our country, but personal everything very individual.
It depends not only on some kind of causes and conditions just now if to see more broad picture, it depends on such matter like a personal karma.
So we don't have one particular question to this one particular answer to this question how to deal, how to survive as a Buddhist at the time of the war, as the soldiers? Yes, we do have some of them in our community. They are Buddhists, sometimes they come to us, sometimes they get in touch with us online.
What we are talking about, not about the war.
Maybe it sounds kind of unusual for you, but the most our topic we discuss through is totally related to Buddhism. We talk about sutta, we talk about basic practice or kind of some profound practices of sati and tamaki and also deepassana.
If these guys want to talk about war, we talk. But actually we don't force them, we don't touch this topic. Because personally I think the idea of war cannot be very good tools for explaining dharma.
Because war itself they can bring to mind kind of unskillful thoughts, unskillful feelings, unskillful emotions. So we usually do not touch with them this topic, what we do sometimes emphasize with them is that we ask them, they understand, of course, but every time when we have opportunity, we try to emphasize that you should try not to do harm. You should not try to engage in direct clashes with another soldier from another side. You should not try to kill.
It's very important.
And of course what we teach to them is try to keep ideas of Buddhism inside your heart. Not to feel it with cruelty, with hatred, with revenge, with rejection. Because any external war will end sooner or later.
But to end the internal conflict in your mind is sometimes much harder and takes much more longer time. That's what we try to explain not only soldiers, but any people now.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: Wow, that's really quite profound advice. I did want to ask you mentioned that you find that they don't really want to talk about the war.
Do they just want to talk about dharma? Or perhaps there's something specific like dealing with fear or trauma. Does that come up at all? Or just people want to just put that to one side and focus on learning more about the practice?
[00:51:41] Speaker A: No, we sometimes talk about this, but not so often. Actually we have one guy who is kind of very profound in this level.
He was Buddhist for a very long time before the war and he even wrote some kind of analogy of satipatana, especially for soldiers.
Very interesting work. I read it. It's not very differs from traditional sadipatana but he especially includes some kind of specific advice. How soldier in the front line when he sit inside this range, when he just hear all the. Sounds, all this shooting, what he should do with his, for example, object like breath, maybe like elements. Also he includes the very deep profound practice of Marana and Musa recollection of death. But I don't think it suits to everyone because it's kind of very profound prophets and one should have very deep, very strong level of the understanding what's going on here.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Was that a soldier, he wrote a book kind of applying sadi batana the foundations of mindfulness to the role of a soldier. He wrote a book about that, is that right?
[00:53:46] Speaker A: It's not a book. It's not kind of a book. It's kind of essay about how to sustain awareness, mindfulness exactly on the front line and how to practice sadipatana. Yes, he wrote kind of this essay. But I'm not sure about was it spread somewhere else or not? Because actually Ukraine country considered to be very strict Christianity, orthodox country and Catholic in the west. And when sometimes people get interested what we do and who we are. But this interest mostly kind of curious, kind of who is this and what are you doing here? Like when someone maybe I think maybe when someone see some guys sitting in this kind of branch and read some unusual texts and spell some unusual words, maybe someone really can be interested in what are you doing here? What are you reading? What kind of practice you apply? But I asked another, my layman, who as well soldier now, I asked him whether he tried to expand our ideas to his comrades.
He said yes, he tried, but actually he failed.
At least he said me. At least it was like 510 minutes curiosity, not more, something like this.
[00:55:58] Speaker B: I'm just finding it just so interesting because I mean, none of us really knows how we're going to react being put under that kind of pressure where there's imminent danger like that until it actually happens.
So I guess my last question, it's quite a big one, is how can we find peace during a time of war? Is it even possible to find any peace? And if it is possible, how can we find some peace during a time of war?
[00:56:35] Speaker A: Yeah, this is really tough one and I believe there is no one answer to this question.
Everyone, I think, should find their own answer.
As a man, what we can do is to make this person to think of it.
I think I believe that try to find peace during the war is maybe not a very wise approach to this. We should try to find peace before the war. And there is some book in China Buddhism, maybe not in China Buddhism.
I don't remember the exact name because I read it many years ago in my youth. But this book said that the best war is the war that didn't happen and the best politics is the politics who did not get to this last stage because the war itself is the last stage of the politics. And if both politics are quite wise, they, I believe, will not get the quarrel between two countries to that level. I think it's devises solution to this question because as I said, war mostly manifests the negative qualities of mind like hatred, aversion revenge, cruelty. And maybe the worst qualities of this is these characteristics of mind they inherited. So our second generation, our third generation, even when the war is over, they are still engaged in this. Again, hated, aversion revenge to opposite side.
But it takes a very deep understanding. You must understand what's going on and how to accept what's happening in very deep level. And again, to find this answer, to find this right answer at the time of war, you must start training jisaya from basics like this simplest thing.
Again, as we talk about Buddhism now, as a Buddhist, we should try to start from sila, from morality and start again from yourself. When you train yourself, you affect another people, your practice, your mindfulness awareness, it's really influenced another people in better way, I believe.
[01:00:19] Speaker B: Well, look, thank you very much, Bante Titi Damo, for spending some time with us and helping us to understand the experience that you're going through and then also many other Ukrainians are going through and also how perhaps we can have a wiser approach, a more mindful approach, even during a time of war.
[01:00:42] Speaker A: Thank you. So it was very pleasure for me to be here and I think, I hope maybe we will do it again sometimes.
[01:00:56] Speaker B: Yes, let's hope so. Thank you very much.
And thank you to all our listeners for joining us for this episode of Treasure Mountain with Bante Titi Damo and giving us a totally fresh perspective upon not just the war in Ukraine, but how it can affect us in our practice and so forth. If you enjoy this podcast, I'd appreciate if you could share this episode with your friends or other people who you think could benefit from its sage advice. And don't forget to click on the follow button on your podcast app so you get the latest episodes turning up in your stream. Treasure Mountain podcast is part of the Everyday Dharma Network. You can find out more about the Treasure Mountain Podcast by going to the link in the show notes for this episode. You can also find out on the Treasure Mountain website information about previous episodes and guests, as well as transcriptions of our interviews. And if you go back to the Everydaydammer Net homepage, you can discover more about the three other podcasts on the network and links to subscribe to any and all of them. I hope you'll join us again for our next episode. And until then, may you all have happiness and peace.
