Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Treasure Mountain, the podcast that inspires and guides us to find the treasure within human experience. I'm your host. Sol hannah Joining us on this episode is a return guest. Arjun Kovalo is joining us from Dharma Realm Buddhist University in California.
Arjun Kovalo is an Ohio born monk who, having been introduced to meditation through the Goenka tradition, first entered the monastery in 2006 after receiving full ordination from Arjun Pasano and Arjun Amaro at Abayagiri Buddhist Monastery in California. In 2010, Arjun Kovalo spent the next decade training at monasteries in the Ajan Char tradition in America and Thailand.
In 2020, after a year practicing at a Paruk Sayodor monastery in Myanmar, arjun Kovalo enrolled at the Dharma Realm Buddhist University in Yukaya, California, where he is currently studying Pali and Sanskrit, among other courses.
Until the end of his formal studies, arjun Kovalo will be participating in the growing Clear Mountain Monastery community remotely and during the winter and summer breaks. After finishing his studies, arjun Kovalo will join the rest of the community in person and on a more regular basis.
Ajankovalo is joining us today to discuss an institution that is often misunderstood in Western countries, even by practising Buddhists in the west. That is the Sangha, the community of ordained Bikus and Bhakurnis monks and nuns. There are some in the west who say that we don't even need a Sangha. But there is no denying that the Sangha was an integral feature of the Budha Sasana from the very beginning. And indeed, to be a Buddhist is to have taken personal refuge with the Buddha, Dharma, and the Sangha. So what do we mean by Sangha? And more importantly, what is it for?
Join us in finding out more about the meaning and purpose of the Sangha with Ajan Kovalo as we seek for the treasure within.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Mountain. Arjun, how are you today?
[00:02:30] Speaker C: I'm doing pretty good, thanks. It's good to be here with you, Saul.
[00:02:34] Speaker D: Yeah. And talking about the Sangha, exciting topic, perhaps?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's an exciting topic. I think it's an important topic. I just wanted to quickly ask you, though, how has your experience been so far at Dharma Realm Buddhist University? How are you finding that experience?
[00:02:56] Speaker C: It's not quite what I expected.
[00:02:58] Speaker D: I don't know what I expected, you know, going from living for 1012 years at at a forest monastery, having very intentionally, many people will leave a university.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Setting to come to a forest monastery.
[00:03:12] Speaker D: And that's what I did as well. And then just having this idea that I wanted my holy life, my life.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: In robes, to be sustainable, and thinking.
[00:03:23] Speaker D: That the meditation monastery that I was staying at meditating eight, 9 hours a day was just not sustainable. So what could I do to elongate.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: My holy life and hopefully stay for.
[00:03:37] Speaker D: My whole life in robes and just drawn to study and so moved into the university with that idea in mind, and it's certainly very common in Buddhist countries. You've got whole Buddhist universities. You've got two huge Buddhist universities with virtually all monk monastic students in Thailand.
[00:03:55] Speaker C: And also in Sri Lanka, Burma.
[00:03:58] Speaker D: And so coming into it, and I thought the lessons that I would be getting would be more focused around language. That's a big focus and interest of.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: Mine poly and Sanskrit.
[00:04:09] Speaker D: And I'm finding that it being a Mahayana Buddhist university, chinese Mahayana in the.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: Shuan Hua School, that the lessons that.
[00:04:20] Speaker D: I'm learning are not ones that I.
[00:04:22] Speaker C: Actually was intending on learning from the.
[00:04:26] Speaker D: Whole experience, but are quite profound, actually. Really being tested and pushed with my own views. Like, how do I hold on to my theravada views? And in the face of I won't say Mahayana opposition, but sometimes it could feel like know, just in these classes where it seems like there are certain concepts which are different from what I'm used to in Vada. And that's been great because it's really forced me to get a hold of what I believe, what I think is Terravada doctrine and how I'm holding on to that. And that's really healthy, I think.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: Well, I got to say, I'm really glad that you're joining us and that you have that experience of having spent over ten years in a meditation monastery. And now you've got also the academic the study background, especially if we're dealing with this topic that we've got today, which is trying to understand the meaning and purpose of the Sangha. And I think a good place to start is to get a clearer understanding of what we mean by the word sangha.
[00:05:37] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a good question. I do believe it is in the Oxford English Dictionary by now, but it's probably not in the vocabulary of most.
[00:05:48] Speaker C: Non Buddhist or non Hindu Western people.
[00:05:52] Speaker D: So basically it's the third of the three jewels the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.
It's typically framed as being of two different levels.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: You've got the Arya sangha.
[00:06:07] Speaker D: So these are the disciples of the Buddha who are enlightened, whether that's Bikus or bikunis, male or female, monastics or laypeople, male or female, that's the noble Sangha. And then you've got a level of the Sangha, which is just the traditional or conventional Sangha, the monastic Sangha. That's us, all of us in robes, Bikus, bikunis.
We are the traditional sangha.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: So not all of us are enlightened.
[00:06:42] Speaker D: It's probably a rather small proportion, most likely, but this is a different level of sangha. And then you've also got a big.
[00:06:51] Speaker C: Question which comes up in Western circles.
[00:06:53] Speaker D: Is that when Buddhism was coming to.
[00:06:56] Speaker C: The west, this idea of Sangha as.
[00:06:58] Speaker D: The third jewel, the third refuge was.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: Being talked about, but there wasn't yet.
[00:07:05] Speaker D: Any kind of foundation of a monastic system. So people started, so what do we take refuge in if there are no people in robes? Nobody who were professional practitioners of this.
[00:07:19] Speaker C: Religion, of this teaching.
[00:07:20] Speaker D: So that the word started being used.
[00:07:22] Speaker C: For in lay contexts.
[00:07:25] Speaker D: So a lay sangha and this is very common in pretty much, I think, most Western countries. I don't think it's used in that way in Thailand or in other it.
[00:07:36] Speaker C: Might be to some extent in Sri.
[00:07:38] Speaker D: Lanka, but yeah, that's a unique way it's used in the west, and I don't actually think it's yeah, the word at the time, there were instances talking about amiga sangha.
[00:07:52] Speaker C: So a sangha of deer or a.
[00:07:54] Speaker D: Deva sangha, a sangha of know. So talking about nupasika sangha, a group.
[00:08:00] Speaker C: Of upasakas or laypeople, I don't think yeah, totally inappropriate. And if it kind of brings some unity to one's practice I did want.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: To ask you about that, though, because maybe I'm incorrect about this, but I thought that there was a slightly different interpretation from Theravada and Mahayana in terms of what the sangha is. Is that correct?
[00:08:24] Speaker C: It's a good question.
[00:08:25] Speaker D: I think maybe it differs depending on the different schools. So I know Nishirin Buddhism, which is the Mahayana sect based out of Japan, they very much have of their school's.
[00:08:41] Speaker C: Belief that sangha is just monastics.
[00:08:43] Speaker D: And similarly, in this Master Hua Mahayana, Chinese Mahayana tradition, it's very much sangha is just monastics. And there are papers written and monks speaking very explicitly about how it's just the monastic community.
But yeah, I don't think there's a general distinction.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: No, I really appreciate that because I was wondering about the origin, because I saw I don't see it so much in Australia, but I noticed in discussions, particularly in the United States, that there's this idea of a lay sangha as well I didn't realize the origin of.
Well, let's get a basic question out of the way. How long has the sangha been around now?
[00:09:29] Speaker C: Well, the sangha has been around since.
[00:09:30] Speaker D: The earliest days of the Buddhas, since the Buddha's enlightenment. So roughly 2600 years ago, the Buddha attained enlightenment. That was the full moon day in July. That was called Visaka Puja, that's celebrated now and then roughly, I believe, roughly.
[00:09:51] Speaker C: A month later, a month after that.
[00:09:54] Speaker D: The Buddha was enlightened. It could have been two months, but the Buddha was enlightened, stayed around the.
[00:09:59] Speaker C: Bodhi tree at Bodhgaya, just conceiving, how.
[00:10:02] Speaker D: Could I possibly teach this to anyone else? And then he conceives that actually, at first he's a bit disheartened, thinks, this.
[00:10:11] Speaker C: Is so subtle, I can't teach.
[00:10:13] Speaker D: No one's going to get this. But then he thinks, actually there are people with little dust in their eyes and the story of the god Sahampati coming down and inviting him to teach.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: There are people with little dust.
[00:10:24] Speaker D: And he actually looks with his Buddha eye and says, oh, there are these.
[00:10:28] Speaker C: Five former friends of mine, and I.
[00:10:30] Speaker D: Can go and teach them.
[00:10:31] Speaker C: And he walks to Varnasi, where he.
[00:10:34] Speaker D: Teaches the Dhamachaka Suta on Asalapucha, I believe it is. It's two months after Visaka.
And that was the birth when he taught that turning the wheel in motion, dhammachakasuta, then Anya Kondanya became a stream enterer, and all these devas rejoiced, and that was the birth of the Arya Sangha.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Okay, well, let's go to the next. I think it's one of our core questions is why do you think the Buddha started the Sangha in the first place? And I think you've given us a little bit of context about how after his enlightenment, there was this sense of, well, how can anybody understand this? And spending some time reflecting on how to teach.
But one of the first things he does is starts the Sangha. So why do you think he did that?
[00:11:29] Speaker C: Well, I mean, there are a number.
[00:11:31] Speaker D: Of principles which the Buddha points to, which are demonstrating this importance of friendship, of community, of the Dhamma into the world. So in terms of these three refuges or the triple jewels, you've got the Buddha, that's enlightenment, and then you've got Dhamma. That's his teachings on enlightenment, the Buddha's teachings. And then the Sangha is that moving out from the heart, from the truth, from realization of the way things are.
[00:12:02] Speaker C: Into the world, and all of us.
[00:12:05] Speaker D: Even the most reclusive monk or nun or whatever kind of ascetic just living by themselves, you have to interact with other people. And the Buddha realized this, and it was just natural that if he's going to teach, he needs to teach someone. And for all of us who are.
[00:12:31] Speaker C: Much less further along the path than.
[00:12:33] Speaker D: He was, we're all still kind of struggling along.
Having friends is very important. And so this is the principle, the famous quote from Ananda, or from the Buddha to Ananda.
[00:12:47] Speaker C: Ananda says, oh, spiritual friendship, kalyana Mittas, beautiful friendship.
[00:12:55] Speaker D: That's half of the holy life. And Buddha comes back with the punchline like, no, it's not. Don't say that.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: Ananda spiritual friendship is the whole of the holy life.
[00:13:07] Speaker D: And I feel like what the Sangha.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: Does is create a group of people who are the symbol of the highest form of that.
[00:13:20] Speaker D: So when one really wants to get.
[00:13:23] Speaker C: Serious about their practice, inspired by the.
[00:13:25] Speaker D: Dhamma, inspired by the Buddha, then it.
[00:13:28] Speaker C: Makes sense to surround oneself with people.
[00:13:31] Speaker D: Who have similar goals and can help one around with one's path.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: Also, I just wanted to ask as well, what does the role of the vinya, the monastic discipline? Because in some ways, I feel like that defines the Sangha.
Obviously, you're wearing a robe, and that's in a symbolic sense, but it's much more than that, isn't it? It's a set of practices and a way of life.
[00:14:00] Speaker D: This is very true. Yeah. So just a bit of background. The vinya, these are all of the Buddhist given regulations for the Bikus and the Bikunis people who've voluntarily decided to ordain into his order. And we take very strict rules. We can't kill if we kill another human, no longer a monk, if we steal in specific ways. If we steal, commit, have sex, if we lie about spiritual attainment, we're no.
[00:14:35] Speaker C: Longer monks and nuns.
[00:14:37] Speaker D: So very strict rules, and we're taking this on ourselves.
And then a bunch of other rules. I mean, we've got 227 main ones for monks, but then just all sorts of minor rules. And the purpose of the vinya, the etymology of the word knee is the root, and that means to lead, and V is in this instance, to lead out. So these are rules which lead outward. It's this principle of discipline equals freedom. So many people, when they first come into Buddhism, perhaps through meditation, really inspired these are teachings on the highest liberation.
[00:15:15] Speaker C: We love freedom.
[00:15:16] Speaker D: Freedom is great. That's what people want in the west. That's what everybody wants. But it seems how does it make any sense to take on all these rules? How are holding on to rules going to enlighten someone?
And that's really the paradox which, as monks and nuns, as people who are trying to live this path, this is the paradox of our life that we have to kind of figure out how do we find freedom within all of these constraints? And it's creative challenge and it can be quite beautiful, but that's definitely the point. And, yeah, there's actually the Buddha gave ten reasons why he laid down the monastic rules, which are quite fascinating.
The first was for the excellence of the sangha, for the support of the sangha, for the restraining of kind of some translations are impudent or basically like monks who are kind of shameless. So for curbing shameless monks who just want to do whatever they want to do, and for supporting monks who really want to get down to the practice. For inspiring faith in those who don't.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: Yet have faith, for increasing the faith.
[00:16:39] Speaker D: Of people who already have faith. For decreasing or for the restraint of asavas or mental outflows unwholesome states of mind in this life. So by keeping all these rules, it's a check on all of the troubles of mind and body and community that can come when we break these things.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: And in future lives.
[00:17:06] Speaker D: And then finally, the Buddha gave it for the comfort of the sangha, the establishment of the true Dhamma and the long life of the venia.
[00:17:14] Speaker C: So it wasn't just for other people. It was for oneself. It was for the community of monks.
[00:17:21] Speaker D: It was for the community of laypeople, and it's for the long life of his teachings.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: So it's a really neat list.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, that is a great list. I haven't heard that before. And it really does outline things very clearly. And thanks also for that point about the vineyard, because in Western society, we worship freedom. We think that's the highest thing. But the idea of freedom is just doing whatever you want, whenever you want. And this is a very different conception of freedom. This is like almost like being free from wanting, which is you have to train to get to that point, don't you? So that's a very powerful point.
Well, I did want to ask, when we take refuge in the Sangha, and of course, both laypeople and monks and nuns do take refuge in the Sangha, what are we taking refuge in?
[00:18:16] Speaker C: It's a great question.
[00:18:17] Speaker D: So you can see it in terms of the three levels of sangha that I mentioned.
So those three are basically in the Noble Arya sangha. So people who are enlightened to some level in the traditional Sangha, the monks and nuns who are wearing robes, even if you wanted to allow this lay idea of a sangha, your Kali on the Mitzvah, and then on an even.
[00:18:46] Speaker C: More fundamental level, is the reflection of sangha within our own hearts. So this is a level which doesn't.
[00:18:53] Speaker D: Really get talked about much, but I think it's very important, it's almost the most important in that the Buddha recommended sangha anusati.
[00:19:04] Speaker C: Anusati is recollection of the Sangha.
[00:19:06] Speaker D: Recollection of the sangha. Not just imagining or visualizing those people who we believe are enlightened ajan man, or all of the disciples of the Buddha, mahama, Galana, Sariputra, people alive today who we think are enlightened, just thinking about these people.
But it can be something much deeper and more personal, almost the place in the heart when you are practicing mindfulness.
[00:19:41] Speaker C: Of mind, this place where you notice that the boundaries between inside and outside.
[00:19:52] Speaker D: So I might do a brief guided meditation later, because that might not be immediately clear, but yeah, there's multiple levels.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Of taking refuge in the Sangha. Taking refuge in that noble Sangha.
[00:20:07] Speaker D: If you can find someone who you believe is noble, and again, you can't know noble Arya, someone who's enlightened to different degrees, has gotten rid of greed, anger and delusion to different levels, then associating with them is wonderful. And the Buddha praised the association with.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: Such people all over the place. Even just seeing such people is great.
[00:20:28] Speaker D: But again, that's somewhat of a know.
[00:20:35] Speaker C: Even if I had Arhats around me.
[00:20:38] Speaker D: All the time, and even if I wanted to be with them, all the know, they're going to shoe me away at certain points. It gets annoying to have somebody like following you around. The Buddha himself did that. There was a case with a monk just kind of following him and just adoring his body.
Yeah. So you can take refuge in someone.
[00:20:59] Speaker C: Who you think are enlightened, or you.
[00:21:02] Speaker D: Can take refuge with a monk or nun. And that's done in different ways, in different traditions.
You can take refuge with the Buddha statue monastics in the Ajancha tradition that I'm familiar with, we bow so many.
[00:21:19] Speaker C: Times throughout the day. We bow first thing in the morning.
[00:21:22] Speaker D: It'S to the Buddha, to the Dhamma, and it's to the Sangha. And when we're alone in our beds in the morning or before we go to bed at night, bowing again, three more times. Buddha dhamma sangha.
[00:21:34] Speaker C: That really is pointing to.
[00:21:39] Speaker D: What is the sangha when we're all alone, just bowing to no one else is in the room? What are we bowing to and what is this sangha internally?
[00:21:54] Speaker B: I did want to ask you that because I know obviously it's very common in Buddhist countries, but for many Westerners, when they first come across Buddhism, they feel a bit uncomfortable with this frequent bowing down, not just to the statue, but also they see us bowing down to monks and nuns.
What is the value of paying respects to the sangha for lay people as well as for monastics? What is the value of doing that, do you think?
[00:22:24] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for bringing this up.
[00:22:26] Speaker D: I mean, it's such a sticky point for many people. You come to a monastery, especially if you're coming to a monastery in the west, and there are maybe people from Thailand who want to show the newly come Westerners, like how to bow or even know, putting their hands on their backs and doing a kind of assisted bow that can be very can wrinkle many people.
But there are so many benefits from learning how to learning how to bow and learning how to bow to these different things and exploring what that might mean internally for oneself, because that's really what it's all about. I mean, all the monasteries I've lived.
[00:23:16] Speaker C: At, it's totally optional.
[00:23:19] Speaker D: Like, monks, we're not or at least I'm not just staring, like, who's bowing and who's not taking score, because it really doesn't matter to me. I don't get any extra points when somebody bows.
Actually, from the monks point of view, we have to be careful.
[00:23:43] Speaker C: There's a pretty extreme sutta where the.
[00:23:45] Speaker D: Buddha said that if a monk, when being bowed to, takes that as reason to make a self and be elated with that receiving of praise, then it would be better for a monk to basically wrap, I believe, wrap themselves in like, an iron heated iron blanket. So basically like a totally duca filled hellish experience than to accept praise in kind of a self forming way.
So pretty strong words. And monks and nuns, we do have to be careful of that.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: But from us bowing or from laypeople.
[00:24:26] Speaker D: Bowing, it really is immediate value is just humility learning that or at least believing that there's something hopefully those first two refuges bowing to the Buddha, the Dhamma, or at least bowing to the sangha or to the Dhamma believing, okay, there's something which I hold up higher than myself. And in starting with that, starting with the Dhamma, you can bow to the Dhamma three times if you want, but maybe then working from there, okay, I respect this quality.
[00:25:01] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:25:02] Speaker D: Peace. I'm not as peaceful as I can be. The Dhamma teaches supreme peace.
[00:25:07] Speaker C: Okay?
[00:25:07] Speaker D: I'm not as happy as I can be. Dhamma teaches highest happiness. Letting go all these things I can bow down to that I can put my head to the ground and literally make this gesture and doing it not just as a performative statement in a group, but when it becomes a whole.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: Different thing, when you do it, when no one's watching.
[00:25:29] Speaker D: And how do you bow when no one's watching?
[00:25:34] Speaker C: And what can you learn from that?
[00:25:35] Speaker D: I mean, is it just a silly gesture? How is it any more silly than anything else that we do?
[00:25:40] Speaker C: Any kind of other stretch or yoga.
[00:25:42] Speaker D: Pose that people do? On one level, it's just a movement of the body. And if you get into these more elaborate forms of bowing, like the Chinese three steps, one bow, which is basically getting on your knees and doing a kind of half bow on the ground, or the Tibetan style, basically full length prostration, it becomes an exercise.
[00:26:06] Speaker C: You're getting some movement with the body.
[00:26:09] Speaker D: So lots of benefits and work up from the Dhamma. Then you can probably get some faith in the Buddha. And then, okay, maybe there are some.
[00:26:16] Speaker C: People and that's a big leap. That's a big psychological shift. I mean, Westerners, we didn't grow up.
[00:26:23] Speaker D: Believing know, other than those of us who were raised Christian, that a human could attain divinity. And Jesus was kind of an outlier because he was the son of God. But we don't have this idea of humans attaining enlightenment and okay, maybe the Buddha, but this idea that other people.
[00:26:41] Speaker C: Can do it too. And not just other people at the time of the Buddha, but that possibly.
[00:26:46] Speaker D: And this is the faith of it's my own faith, and it's the faith of many others that there are still living masters who have put an end to greed, anger and delusion in their own mind. And just bowing to that, I've got images of my favorite ajans on my shrine. It's not just the Buddha that I'm bowing to.
Lots of different ajans in my shrine.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think that's such a powerful point that you're making is that bowing is totally optional. No one is requiring it. You can go to a Buddhist monastery or a temple. No one requires it. The people who are bowing are choosing to do it. And they're bowing down to those when they bow to the Sungates, to those noble qualities which you mentioned, like putting an end to greed, hatred and delusion, totally clearing the mind and having pure wisdom.
That is such a rare thing in our world today to venerate those qualities.
This brings me to, I think, really just the big question of this interview, which is what is the purpose ultimately, what is the purpose of the Sangha? And you've spoken a bit about what it represents, but also, I mean, in terms of the Arya Sangha, the noble ones, but most of the Sangha aren't Arya yet. And you've spoken about the importance of friendship, but it's more than that as well, isn't it? It's a vehicle for training. What else can we say about what is the purpose of having a sangha in the 21st century?
[00:28:28] Speaker D: Yeah, the purpose of having a conventional, traditional sangha of people who are not wearing normal clothes but are just wrapped in robes and shaving heads.
Great question. And yeah, I mean, just speaking from a personal point of view or the point of view of many people who.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: Are inclined to this lifestyle themselves.
[00:28:52] Speaker D: So there are many people and the numbers just seem to be increasing, who.
[00:29:00] Speaker C: Are disillusioned with the dreams that are.
[00:29:06] Speaker D: Put forth in the media or are.
[00:29:08] Speaker C: Even put forth in deep works of literature.
[00:29:12] Speaker D: The traditional values of certainly American values and consumerist values, belief in dreams of.
[00:29:27] Speaker C: Wealth, having wealth as one's highest refuge.
[00:29:32] Speaker D: This kind of goal, which is not.
[00:29:36] Speaker C: Even questioned.
[00:29:40] Speaker D: In so many circles, having.
[00:29:43] Speaker C: That as one's foundation in life just becomes so hollow. And seeing that there exists an institution.
[00:29:55] Speaker D: And yeah, institution, the word itself has gotten a bad name because of all.
[00:30:01] Speaker C: Of the corruptions that can happen to any institution and have happened to religious.
[00:30:06] Speaker D: Institutions, including the Buddhist sangha in different.
[00:30:11] Speaker C: Ways at different times.
[00:30:13] Speaker D: But just having this group of people.
[00:30:17] Speaker C: And hopefully you can find a local.
[00:30:20] Speaker D: Sangha.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: Or at least in the same.
[00:30:25] Speaker D: Country, you might have to go to.
[00:30:26] Speaker C: The opposite of the country, which I.
[00:30:28] Speaker D: And many others did in America.
But an inspiring group of people who.
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Even if they're not enlightened, share similar goals and going from well, first, jumping.
[00:30:43] Speaker D: From a rather just pleasure seeking life.
The word pleasure seeking is not really even a compound which is used that often just because it's the default principle for most people in their lives.
But then in America, with enough, it's fairly easy.
[00:31:09] Speaker C: A middle class lifestyle, you just get enough, and then once you've got enough.
[00:31:17] Speaker D: Money, enough food, and you just start eating more food and going to more movies and consuming more live streams and it just doesn't satisfy in the same way. And then having the idea and the actuality of a group of people who are trying something different, who give away.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: Their who voluntarily give away their cell phones.
[00:31:40] Speaker D: I mean, just that is impressive.
Yeah. And being able then for those people who can, who found a monastery that they're inspired with, then the option of they themselves entering into that and then giving up the things we give up in order to gain the things that we're given and that we're working towards is just such an amazing thing in the world and extremely unique.
Yeah. Terabada Buddhist monasteries didn't really exist in America before the at least with Western abbots who could explain different concepts to people, say, much before the 80s, so if not later.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a very powerful point and I love that way of expressing it.
I think for us living in the west, that pleasure seeking as a default when we don't even think about it. It is just like, of course, that's what you do. But then even just seeing a monk or a nun and their lifestyle, it's like a question arises in the mind, well, why would you do that? And it's a clear alternative. And I think that's one of the beauties for laypeople is that well, there is that alternative, and I could perhaps go on a retreat, and that's living like a monk or a nun for a short time, or maybe I'll go the whole way and try it out and see if I like it. But I did also just want to ask, there is this ancient tradition, which of course, continues today, which is that laypeople support the monastics. In fact, the monastics are based on the vineyard, are independents on the laypeople for food and for all of their necessities.
What is the value of that for laypeople?
[00:33:37] Speaker D: Well, for laypeople who want to, ordain it's almost a necessary prerequisite.
[00:33:44] Speaker C: I mean, you have to live at.
[00:33:45] Speaker D: The monastery and kind of draw near to the monks if you want to, ordain for people who either don't want.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: To ordain or have life circumstances that.
[00:33:55] Speaker D: Don'T permit them to, ordain it's just a great chance to draw near to monastics. Oftentimes the way that alms round is carried out in the west, like Ajan Nisibo myself up in Seattle, ajan Nisibo right now while I'm in school, you know, he's going alms round every day.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Really?
[00:34:14] Speaker D: Yeah, alms round six days a week, six days a week into Pike's Place.
[00:34:20] Speaker C: Market near the original Starbucks.
[00:34:23] Speaker D: But basically the way it's done in the west is he goes and stands outside of a market and people know where he's going to be and people come. He usually doesn't have an idea of who all is going to come, but people do come, and it's actually a chance to speak dhamma, a chance for people to actually talk to someone who's trying to immerse themselves in the Buddhist teachings in Thailand or a Buddhist country. Oftentimes aumjiang is a totally silent affair. Not even in many monasteries, monks don't.
[00:34:59] Speaker C: Even chant a blessing.
[00:35:00] Speaker D: So they'll basically walk by with their alms bowls.
[00:35:03] Speaker C: People put food in their bowls and.
[00:35:05] Speaker D: They don't even stop. They just keep walking. And that's the correct thing in that cultural circle.
But in the west, people just don't know enough about monks to have a monk just receive food and then for the monk to continue on without saying a word.
It could happen. But, yeah, conditions have to be quite specific for that. But it's a chance to, in the west, to speak with someone who's studied the dhamma, has been living the dhamma, practicing meditation for a long time, keeping precepts for a long time, someone who's been meditating on death, someone who has.
[00:35:51] Speaker C: A different perspective from the world.
[00:35:52] Speaker D: They're not glued into all of the media that most people are looking at every. Day, their attachments with all sorts of attachments are much less. It's a very different world inside of the Sangha and to be able to interact with someone who's in a very.
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Different subculture than you are a very.
[00:36:14] Speaker D: Different environment, you can learn a lot from such a person. So can talk. And even just the act of giving food, even if you don't say a word to the monk, it's just a.
[00:36:25] Speaker C: Beautiful opportunity, which is sad that it's.
[00:36:28] Speaker D: Not more widely practiced and available in the west. I was visiting my grandfather a number of years ago before he passed away and it was a really beautiful time. I was staying at my grandmother and grandfather's for two months just before he died. And my grandma loved know, she would make me food, put it, offer it.
[00:36:52] Speaker C: To me every day and she just loved it.
[00:36:55] Speaker D: And you see this in Buddhist countries.
[00:36:57] Speaker C: When someone has retired, especially if their.
[00:37:00] Speaker D: Kids have moved to Bangkok, their kids have moved away. Not to mention America, where the whole society is so know you've got my grandma was in Tennessee and the rest of my family was in California or.
[00:37:14] Speaker C: Washington or all over the place.
[00:37:16] Speaker D: And just having this contact where say.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: The grandma in Thailand.
[00:37:23] Speaker D: There's at times 300,000 monks in Thailand.
[00:37:27] Speaker C: And many of them going alms round every day.
[00:37:30] Speaker D: The grandma, if her kids don't live around, she maybe has physical conditions he or she has physical conditions that prevent them from continuing to work in the.
[00:37:41] Speaker C: Fields or work in their jobs the.
[00:37:44] Speaker D: Same way they used to. But still, they can cook a little.
[00:37:48] Speaker C: Bit of sticky rice early in the.
[00:37:50] Speaker D: Morning and then come outside and the.
[00:37:52] Speaker C: First act you do during the day is to put some food into somebody else's bowl. And the fascinating thing is that it.
[00:37:58] Speaker D: Makes you rich or it makes you not poor automatically if you're giving something.
[00:38:05] Speaker C: To someone, even if you're living in.
[00:38:09] Speaker D: Some of the places, the shacks, the huts, the sheds that people lived in in some of the places that I've lived in Thailand, these forest monasteries are at.
[00:38:20] Speaker C: I mean, people in the west have.
[00:38:21] Speaker D: No idea what material poverty can look like.
[00:38:28] Speaker C: But then to have someone who lives.
[00:38:30] Speaker D: In a shed with just a corrugated metal roof to come out and put.
[00:38:37] Speaker C: Food in your bowl, it's totally flipped. How are they poor?
[00:38:41] Speaker D: If they've got enough to give, then how are they the ones who are poor? And it just can totally shift one's.
[00:38:47] Speaker C: Own perceptions of oneself and it's very humbling.
[00:38:52] Speaker D: For the monks, it's a good lesson. Like, am I doing what I need to do? Am I practicing the teachings to be worth this ball of sticky rice? To be worth this?
I mean, you come to the west.
[00:39:03] Speaker C: There are affluent monasteries and it's just.
[00:39:06] Speaker D: Total abundance of food.
[00:39:09] Speaker C: So are we worth and so lots of different purposes and benefits from offering.
[00:39:14] Speaker D: Alms and associating with the sangha.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: And I think you've really hit on a really valuable point, is the joy that arises from giving, which is just so powerful, and you see it again and again. And I think that Westerners sometimes miss it. And I did just want to share one story that came to mind very briefly, which was Dalai Lama had a Westerner who was doing translations for him, and she was obviously part of his entourage. And at one point in Dharamsala in India, there was this Tibetan woman, and she bowed down and very with a great deal of veneration, and she gave the Dalai Lama a skirt.
And she's clearly very, very poor, and she gave the Dalai Lama a skirt, like a dress. And this woman was like, what? How can you possibly it's like it was insulting to her way of thinking, this woman is so poor. How can you accept this skirt? She's probably like one or two or three that she has, and you're accepting it from her. You should say no. And she said this to the Dalai Lama afterwards, and he says, yes, you're right. She was very poor, but she needed to give.
And that's the point. And I think we often miss that, is that the happiness and joy which arises from giving, even if you have just a little I think what you said before, just to be able to give that little bit, all of a sudden you're rich in a spiritual sense.
[00:40:45] Speaker C: That's a really beautiful story. And, yeah, thank you for highlighting how.
[00:40:51] Speaker D: Giving can lead to joy.
[00:40:52] Speaker C: But even just this recollection of the Sangha can lead to joy. Whether it's the noble Sangha, I know.
[00:40:58] Speaker D: Many people, myself included, who at times.
[00:41:00] Speaker C: Like thinking about the kindness of a.
[00:41:03] Speaker D: Teacher we've met, or even a teacher.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: We haven't met, many people will think of their ajan who might not even still be alive, but just like, tears.
[00:41:12] Speaker D: Of joy and thanks come to mind. And similarly, yeah, the Buddha said that recollection of sangha can lead to pamoja, which is gladness, which then leads to.
[00:41:24] Speaker C: Pity or rapture, which then leads to bodily calm, which then leads to sukha or happiness.
[00:41:31] Speaker D: And from that happiness, the mind can become concentrated and see things the way they are. So this is a very explicit mention.
[00:41:41] Speaker C: In the texts of how thinking of the Sangha, bringing the sangha into one's heart, experiencing this can lead to better.
[00:41:51] Speaker D: And better joy and then joy plus.
[00:41:53] Speaker C: Plus in the Samadhi.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: I think this would be an excellent place in which to conclude our interview. You did mention earlier about that idea of Sangha nusati recollection of the Sangha. Could you give us some guidance as to how we might practice Sangha nusati?
[00:42:14] Speaker D: Yeah, maybe I'll just do a quick.
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Maybe three or five minute guided meditation just exploring this principle of sangha being the Dhamma when it moves out into the world. So sitting or standing in a stable posture.
Now bring your attention to your right hand and wiggle your right finger.
So feel your hand and your finger from the inside and wiggle your right finger.
Then look down and yeah, your finger actually is wiggling.
[00:43:00] Speaker D: There's an accurate relationship between what it.
[00:43:04] Speaker C: Feels like in your mind and what.
[00:43:06] Speaker D: Your body is actually doing.
[00:43:09] Speaker C: Bring your attention to your left hand.
[00:43:12] Speaker D: Feel it from the inside.
[00:43:16] Speaker C: Now bring your attention to your heart.
And not just think about your heart, but actually let the mind drop into this cavity in the upper chest.
Feel the warmth there.
And then with the eyes closed, just see if you can feel a boundary.
Can you feel the front of your chest? Where do you stop?
[00:43:49] Speaker D: And where does the world begin?
[00:43:53] Speaker C: In the back, is there any clear demarcation? Is there any enclosement, any clear marker of what is inside and what is outside?
And experiencing this, seeing that from a first person perspective, it feels like we're living in a cloud.
The mind is not restricted seemingly within the skin.
In feeling this, just allow the mind to play and stay there at this border, this bordering or this non border of internal and external.
And this is one way to conceive of Sangha. It's that which is in contact with the external world.
It's that which mingles with outside.
And you can just start from here, start from the heart and just play with the boundaries or the boundarylessness of the body and the heart. And bring a teacher, a friend, kalyana, Mitta, biku, bikshuni, bikuni.
Bring them to mind. And just let that concept, that idea, let it just mingle with your heart, sense your open hearted awareness.
[00:46:14] Speaker D: And.
[00:46:19] Speaker C: Let the space be filled with gratitude.
And then take that into your day. And that's a way of trying to live. Sangana Sati basically, coming from the heart, coming into the world with gratitude and having this relationship, knowing that there is this relationship in your heart between yourself.
[00:46:50] Speaker D: And your highest goal and its lived manifestation.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: Thank you very kindly, Chan, for coming with us onto this interview and outlining the meaning and purpose of the Sangha. Thank you very kindly.
[00:47:05] Speaker D: Yeah, thank you.
[00:47:06] Speaker C: SA.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: Thank you to all our listeners for joining us for this inspiring episode of Treasure Mountain in which we took a deeper understanding of the meaning and purpose of the Sangha with Kovalo. If you enjoy this podcast, I'd appreciate if you could share this episode with your friends or other people who you think could benefit from its sage advice. And don't forget to click the follow button on your podcast app so that you get the latest episodes turning up in your stream.
Treasure Mountain Podcast is part of the Everyday Tungman Network. You can find out more about the Treasure Mountain Podcast by going to the link in the show Notes for this episode.
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I hope you'll join us again for our next episode of Treasure Mound podcast as we seek for the treasure within.
